This is Forest to Frame, where we explore how restoring forests creates beautiful spaces. A podcast dedicated to conversations with industry leaders, shaping the future of the forest industry. And now, here's your host, Russ Vaagen. Hey everybody, Russ here again for another episode of the Forest to Frame podcast. Welcome. Today, I wanna talk a little bit about business related stuff and personnel. You know, we've been, I've had the great opportunity and good fortune to have a lot of people work for me over the years, whether it was when I was vice president or plant manager over at Vaughan Brothers and a series of different jobs and, you know, And I've always enjoyed having people work for you. And then here at Vaughan Timbers, excuse me, we've been, right now got about 80 employees and people always go, how do you employ people in these small towns? And when I was at Vaughan Brothers, we reopened the Midway Sawmill up in Midway, British Columbia. And I don't think it's ever easy. I think you have different situations in urban environments and big cities and mid-sized cities and rural America. But in rural America, overall, we're always operating in an area where people have traditionally worked in forest products. And so whether it was the mill or whether it's the mass timber facility, you have people that typically have worked in that arena in the past and they live nearby. But I would say, you know, notwithstanding the location, the hardest part of hiring that I ever experienced was post COVID. That was just crazy ridiculous, because everybody was looking for people and it was really expensive. But one of the things that I want to talk about is like these key positions when you're running a business That's the hardest part because there are people that work with you closely, you have to count on. And I'm getting better at building systems so that we follow the same thing over and over again. I've always said that I want to really define the rule, the expectations. and then try as much as possible to live within the rule and deal with the exceptions. Because if you don't set the rules for things, all you're doing is dealing with exceptions. And so that makes it really hard to stay consistent and get consistent results. But, you know, I think in both Vaagen Brothers Lumber, my experience there, I was there I think 17 years, and my experience here at Vaagen Timbers since 2017, I think the hardest position to hire for is in the, for me, it was always in the accounting field. And I actually was an accounting major for a small amount of time. When I was at Washington State University, I ended up being business management and human resource management, but I did have some exposure to accounting. And then I worked for BDO Seidman right out of college for a little bit of time in Seattle. And so I've always, you know, been around accountants. And, you know, there's different accounting, there's, you know, there's your traditional bookkeeper, bean counter, whatever you want to call that, and you have your tax prep people. And then you have people that are in, you know, finance and other parts of that whole accounting world. And, you know, the tricky part is that I think it attracts A lot of people who are risk averse, and it's a good field to go into, it's always in demand. And so I think a lot of people get talked into that field, but they also, a lot of people are risk averse. And so they really are focused on the numbers and doing the right thing and making sure the numbers align. But sometimes you need to, if you're in a business, you need to take some risk. So I would just say, I've had good fortune to work with a lot of great accountants. And then some others that were probably good accountants in one of these areas may not have been as good of an accountant in another area. And those things are really hard to define when you're not an accountant. And It's just, and it's also one of those things that it takes a while because it's not the same as other fields of the business where you can see the results right away. And You know, the other part about it that's really tricky is if you have somebody that's not 100% honest or doesn't have the diligence to deliver the bad news, or, you know, maybe dishonest and just, you know, wanna move things around, it's really hard to undo that. So I've talked to a number of people, you know, you know, that have been accounting leaders. And now there's just seems like there's more information and people out there. There's also a lot of contract accounting services out there. And you may not if you're running a midsize business, you know, like maybe, you know, a service business with a few people, or maybe, you know, 15 or less employees, you probably don't need like a full time controller, certainly not a full time CFO. And so, you know, you could go out and try a few different services, or maybe somebody who works part time for a number of different clients, and get what you need. But It's also a personnel fit because if you have a certain risk tolerance and your accountant doesn't, that can be tricky because you have to be willing to forecast and you have to look at, okay, what do we think is possible? What do we think is real? And what's the worst case scenario and model that? And certain people in the accounting world, I think, really have a hard time seeing beyond what is just right in front of them. And that's not their fault. I mean, that's what they're wired for. And they're really good at that part. But I think that a lot of people in my field and in my position as an executive, as a CEO, a founder, have a hard time deciphering those things. And then you end up having some turning all your numbers over to somebody that doesn't share what you're trying to do. And it's just really hard. And I had a, I don't want to name names, but I had a really good controller for a number of years. And I think that there was, she had an opportunity to go back to, the public accounting world. And I think that really, after spending some time with us, I think that really resonated with her as the place she really liked to be and wanted to be. And I was actually happy to see that, even though it put us back because it was during a period of time where it was really hard to find accountants. But, you know, as a leader, I like to see people align with what they're doing. And I've always said that if I can't provide the opportunity for somebody for their growth and they are capable of that and they leave to go do that, I give them a letter of recommendation. I think that our job as leaders aren't to hold people back, but you want to have really great people. So giving them opportunity. But at times, you know, there's somebody that is ready to go to another level. And if they whether it's starting a new business or doing something else, I want to encourage that. But I also want to create a great work environment where people feel like they're able to seek their potential and do what they can do. But yeah, I just I thought a lot about that. And, and It's funny, having worked with as many accountants as I have over the years, it's one of those things that you… it's hard to go look into somebody else's computer and see what they're doing. And then what their thought process is as they're doing it. And so it takes some time to build that cadence with people and understand. But if I were advising somebody else, another business owner, you know, like myself or just starting out, I would say, you know, Number one, go see if you can get recommendations from people who you really trust. And it doesn't necessarily mean people, just what to look for. And I think now more than ever, there's a lot of really great contract CFOs out there that can help either set up your accounting system or provide services to you that are quite expensive, but you don't need to buy that many hours. So you get like really great work. That's another thing that I've noticed with accounting is I've seen it with the legal field as well. you know, it's not always the highest rate per hour, that's the most expensive. It's the ones that take a long time and don't get it done quite right. But if you get somebody that's super experienced, and very trustworthy, and they they track their time, you know, well, You can pay a really high hourly rate, but you don't have to pay for as many hours. And once it's done, it's done right. To me, I gravitate towards that. And I've seen more mistakes happen when somebody has tried to skimp on maybe the level of the person and their capabilities and experience versus getting it done right the first time. Yeah, I think there's a couple other things I think about with accounting and the accounting profession in general. When I worked for BDO Seidman years ago, I had the good fortune of working with a lot of great people and people I could count on, but it seems like maybe it was during COVID or a little before, there was a large turnover at a number of these organizations. And I think in retirements and other things, But I also saw that the rates went way up. And when I look at services now from accounting firms, I unfortunately now know what to expect. And it's a lot more than I used to expect before, even as being somebody that was on the accounting side of things. Yeah, with that, I would just say, seek some counsel when you're looking for accounting help as a business, and make sure you align your goals with that of the folks that you're looking to work with. And with that, we'll close it here. Thanks for joining, a little different podcast this time, but yeah, Thanks so much for tuning into this episode. We sure do appreciate it. If you haven't done so already, make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you consume podcasts. This way you'll get updates as new episodes become available. And if you feel so inclined, please leave us a review and tell a