This is Forest to Frame, where we explore how restoring forests creates beautiful spaces. A podcast dedicated to conversations with industry leaders shaping the future of the forest industry. And now, here's your host, Russ Vaagen Hey everybody, Russ here again for another episode of Forced Frame Podcast. And today I want to talk a little bit about something that we're really excited about here at Vaagen Timbers. And that is some investments in time and energy and technology that we've made that we think makes us a little bit different in the marketplace and really helps the constructability of the project out there. And I'd like to give a shout out to one of our team members, Richard Vogel. Richard's a real talented and intelligent guy. He came to us originally to help us do some CAD drawing and work on tying the drawings that we might get from Revit or other models, putting them into a what they call a machine model to allow us to program each component that goes to our CNC machine and cuts the parts up. And so we do what's called nesting, where we take a full panel and then inside that, nested inside that is a final part, whether there's angled cuts, holes, whatever. And so that's what Richard did for some time. And then we also, because of the nature of mass timber projects, we were also working hard to figure out how to sequence these loads. So when we load the truck, we want the first column at the top of the load. So when the truck pulls up to the job site, we don't want anything hitting the ground. So we want the truck to pull up, whether it's a crane or it doesn't really matter what lifting mechanism it is. The first thing they pick up is numbered and it's on top load and it puts it out there. So Richard with his skill set, decided that he would come to us with a potential solution that he could drop code for and created his own software system that we have here at Vaagen Timbers called Timber Sequence Pro. And so instead of, going in and manually sequencing these loads to the constructability, we actually have a three-dimensional model now that Richard's put together and he works with on all of our projects. It's something we're now using as even a sales tool. We're able to go in and take these designs, these models that are out there that our clients are using to design their homes, their apartment buildings, their industrial buildings, you know, what have you. And we're taking those drawings. And while we're putting those into the machining model, we're also putting it into this Timber Sequence Pro, we can tie almost everything together in it. And so now we get a lot of contractors that come to us that, you know, have this mass timber building kind of thrust upon them, they've never done it. And, you know, the contracting world is one that is constantly trying to mitigate risks. So anytime you do something new, it's seen as being risky or something that people want to steer away from because change orders and something that you don't know is, you know, It can be expensive. It can mean the difference between thinking you're making money and losing money. But we find with mass timber that we're able to eliminate a lot of those things. And with the help of Timber Sequence Pro, we can show people that this really is like a big monster kit of Legos that you can just put together. And on top of the parts that we have, we have the hardware that goes with it. We can show the detailing on that. you know, helps a contractor that does the erection to see, oh, okay, so this, this load is gonna come in, it's gonna get each piece picked up and set in a very systematic way. And it works really well, it's very fast. And it's a piece of technology that we have at Vaagen Timbers that we think differentiates us from the rest of the group out there. There's a lot of people that are using really cool software and different things, but Timber Sequence Pro, we believe is something that helps us deliver more value to our clients, and we're going to build upon that even more. One of the things that's a big challenge in our business is getting pricing and estimates turned around. We're looking deeper into that to see how can we improve upon that. Because a lot of times, we get drawings or proposals on projects that require pricing, but they're not finished. So we give them a price, and then they go back, and then we give them another price, and they go back, and it is a back and forth. And it's a lot of work. And if that project doesn't come to fruition, you're talking about, you know, hundreds of hours of work that people are putting into it and it's not coming to fruition. So what we're trying to do is simplify that process. One of the ways we do that is we also offer a design assist contract and pre-construction services agreement. So What that means is, just like you would hire an architect and an engineer to design your project and to go through the process and making sure it's the right size and all the different attributes of the building fit your needs, we can become part of that team and we can optimize the design for mass timber. On the other hand, on the other end of things, we often get projects that are designed in other materials. And somebody goes, well, can you turn this into a mass timber building? The answer is almost always yes. But if it's not designed from the ground up, you have some challenges with where you're placing the columns. There's also, for a lot of building materials, you have a different strength-weight ratio. So if you're taking a standard mid-rise steel and concrete building, that's going to be much heavier than a mass timber building. Therefore, all the concrete foundation work and excavation that's done on site is going to be different too. So we help go through all that process When it comes to the expense, you're talking about tens of thousands of dollars versus a multi-million dollar project. It really is money well spent, and we can go through and do a number of iterations We can do value engineering on the front end. So we can talk about species, grades, finishes. We can talk about is it better to use a different material type for a certain part of the building and mixing and matching those things. And I think that's the next wave of mass timber, to be honest. I think we're going to tie together some of these materials that are out there. There's other engineered wood products that at this point really haven't tied together with mass timber. open web trusses and things like that, that might be a lower cost alternative, especially in some buildings that want the look of mass timber, but don't need it everywhere. There's also opportunities to use steel and wood interchangeably. And so I think when we look through those things, doing it in a more 3D model with a design assist on the front end as a service contract, it's much easier than going back and forth over and over again. You might get the price of the product you ask for, which may not mix with your budget. But if you were to start over again, and say, okay, help us find the optimal solution, we may be able to come to the budget and get you what you need. It's just a different way of looking at it. In the beginning of this, we just kept getting drawings and say, hey, give us a number on this. Well, that's not always the best answer. And so, you know, with time, we're going to get better as an industry and as a company to be able to answer the needs of those, but I would say our mass timber projects now. The majority of them come with a design assist contract on the front end and a pre-construction services agreement. And they go very smooth. And, you know, we're delivering on schedule, we're delivering for the price we said, and, you know, very little things go outside the plan. And that's good for everybody. So we think that more and more people are going to see that they're going to understand that they're going to see where mass timber fits in the built environment. And yeah, we've got a couple other things coming out that are really exciting that I'm not at liberty to talk about yet. But we're working on you know, protecting things like Timber Sequence Pro with our intellectual property protections that we have and doing some things there because, you know, we come from a background that's more traditional in the wood products world and sawmilling and forestry where there's not a lot of that, but we're innovating things at a rapid rate and there's a good reason to sure that we're using technology and other things and protecting the things that we come up with that are unique to us. So we're excited about that. But we've also got some other things coming in terms of sourcing, and, you know, meeting clients environmental sensitivities when it comes to carbon and when it comes to responsible sourcing and reporting. So we're really excited about that and look forward to catching up with you on many things coming up. But we're also going to put some stuff out there publicly for people to take a look at with Timber Sequence Pro in the future. So be on the lookout for that. We're gonna be updating our website in the coming months as well. So that should all be very interesting stuff and exciting news for people to check out and moving Thanks so much for tuning into this episode. We sure do appreciate it. If you haven't done so already, make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you consume podcasts. This way you'll get updates as new episodes become available. And if you feel so inclined, please leave us a review and tell a